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| Atheism Defined | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 15 2007, 05:10 PM (1,573 Views) | |
| Isis | Apr 15 2007, 05:10 PM Post #1 |
The Goddess of Darkness & Desire
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Atheism - Defining the Terms There are two basic forms of atheism: "strong" atheism and "weak" atheism. Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods. Weak atheism is the disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. Weak atheism is often confused with agnosticism, the lack of belief or disbelief in God or gods, and skepticism, the doctrine that the absolute knowledge of God's existence is unobtainable by mere man. Many agnostics and skeptics are "practical atheists" in that they actively pursue an atheistic lifestyle. The exclusion of God necessitates moral relativism. Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) declared, and philosophers generally agree, without God there is no absolute truth and thus no universal moral standard of conduct. Humanist John Dewey (1859-1952), co-author and signer of the Humanist Manifesto I (1933), declared, "There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes." Atheism - Strong Atheism Does "strong" atheism correspond with or contradict objective reality? Let's look at this question objectively. Suppose someone asks you, "Does God exist?" You could answer in one of three ways: "I know for certain that God exists" (assured theism), "I don't know whether or not God exists" (insecure theism, agnosticism, "weak" atheism and/or skepticism), or "I know for certain that God doesn't exist" ("strong" atheism). To know for certain that God exists, you don't have to know everything but you do have to know something - you must either know God personally or you must be aware of some evidence establishing His existence. To be unsure whether or not God exists, you don't have to know everything. In fact, by your own admission you don't know everything. However, to claim to know for certain that God doesn't exist - to positively assert a universal negative - you would have to know everything. To be absolutely certain that God doesn't exist outside the limits of your knowledge, you would have to possess all knowledge. Let's make this practical. Do you know everything? Do you know half of everything? Do you know 1% of everything? Let's be incredibly gracious and suppose that you know 1% of everything there is to know. Thomas Edison confidently declared, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything." Nevertheless, given the supposition that you know 1% of everything, is it possible that evidence proving God's existence exists in the 99% of everything you don't know? If you're honest, you'll have to admit that it's a real possibility. The fact is, since you don't possess all knowledge, you don't know if such evidence exists or not. Thus, you cannot be a "strong" atheist - you don't know that God doesn't exist. Atheism vs. Theism Strong atheism is a logically flawed position. Weak atheism, agnosticism and skepticism are all "I don't know" theological positions, with weak atheists subscribing to atheistic presuppositions, true agnostics "sitting on the fence," and skeptics capitulating to ignorance. Assured theists are the only ones who claim to know anything. What do they know? In the end it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what's actually true. You might not believe in gravity. Nevertheless, if you step off a tall building you are going to splat on the ground below. The existence of God has enormous implications for you and me, and prudence would have us make a full investigation of all the available data before putting our eternity in the care of any one belief-system. Ask yourself these types of questions: "How do I know something's true?" "What is the source of my information?" "Is my source absolutely reliable?" "What if I'm wrong?" |
     Isis, The Goddess of Desire & Darkness. In The Darkness, We Find The Light. This is a Drama Free Zone..! | |
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| LarryOldtimer | Apr 16 2007, 09:05 PM Post #2 |
The man!!
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I consider myself an atheist. Here is my position. I have seen nothing of what I would call evidence that there is a god, so why bother to worry about it? As to morality, I think that there are standards of human behaviour which have to be in order for any civilization to survive, and as gregarious animals, humans have to have others living around and among them to survive for any lengthy period of time. There hasn't been a civilization or long lasting grouping of people who didn't have about the same set of what can only be called basic morals. Illegal to murder, illegal to steal, both a requirement for human interactions to succeed. I need no god to tell me that stealing is wrong, but for me, it is not wrong because a god said so, but rather that it would be a wretched and non-functioning society if stealing were not prohibited. I also feel that I have, through my personal research, reason to think that there is an "afterlife", that is, that there is a continuing life, both before and after this one, and that it is a natural thing, sort of like caterpillars turning into butterflies, no god needed. I also see no reason that I would have to "live up" to someone elses definition of what I should think (not believe). I am me, and will make my decisions for myself, no outside help needed. |
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| GreatWhiteHorse | Apr 17 2007, 03:52 AM Post #3 |
Friend of Caesar
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I too, am an atheist. To say that atheism is a logically flawed conclusion implies that the opposite (theism) is not. I find this absurd. Belief in an inexplicable, paranormal and intelligent creation to human life, not to mention a 'god' or 'gods' sitting up there like celestial voyeurs is as flawed in it's logic as any system of beliefs could be. To believe in a creationist set of ideas ignores monumental scientific evidence that does for science's ideas what nothing can do for theism - proves it. I believe that if there is indeed a big man in the sky with some wild moral compass allowing all of the things in life that go awry to happen to good folks on a whim, than when I meet him in the end he will not sit in judgment of me, but I will judge him for putting me through his little rat-maze. It is like this, If evil exists, God as we know it cannot exist. Because of evil, God either allows it to exist (not all-good) or is powerless to stop it (not all-powerful). Therefore any god who DOES exist and presides over us is flawed, and is not worthy of the unquestioning devotion of so many. I drew up my own conclusions after hours and long nights of study of all major theologies...and I must say that I a hoping if there is a God he rewards guys like me for using the brains he gave us! 
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| El Bandito | Apr 20 2007, 07:51 AM Post #4 |
Traveler
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I'm also atheist....and at this point in my life ...and at this time...almost afraid to give my opinion on anything other than to say... "Both of you described my like feelings on this subject" & I also believe that nobody on this earth should have to defend their beliefs for the sake of someone else..We are all entitled to our own beliefs...and given our time on this earth to enrich our lives...If we want to believe in God...that is for us to decide...if we fail to see his existence..that is also for us to decide |
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| Deleted User | Apr 20 2007, 07:57 AM Post #5 |
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I believe there's a God, but I'm not much for religion. |
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| Isis | May 4 2007, 03:55 PM Post #6 |
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The Goddess of Darkness & Desire
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I have not posted sense all of you know i believe in God.... 
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Isis, The Goddess of Desire & Darkness. In The Darkness, We Find The Light. This is a Drama Free Zone..! | |
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| AtlantisRises | May 8 2007, 04:45 PM Post #7 |
 
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Well I am also an Aethiest. I have dabbled in many forms of religion. Tried to find many different gods but in the end I have come to the conclusion that the gods are just reflections of ourselves. And imperfect reflections at that. As such I think it makes more sense to believe in myself then to believe in a higher power. And as a very good friend of mine said "I'd rather burn in hell then change who I am to get into heaven" |
    Who is John Galt | |
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| Deleted User | May 8 2007, 05:34 PM Post #8 |
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I'm surprised by all the Aetheists so far. Like I said, I'm not much for religion, so I wouldn't be surprised if people were saying they think that's nonsense. But just to have no belief in any type of "higher being", for lack of a better term, I guess I just wasn't expecting it. Wouldn't no belief in God also mean no belief in any sort of an afterlife as well? "don't know". I've certainly questioned wether I believe in the existence of a God or not, and whenever I come to trying to reach a conclusion, it just always seems to make more sense to me that one exists. I just think there's too many amazing things that take place in the world not feel there isn't something more behind it. I also know I pray when I feel the need to, so I must believe in a God if I'm praying, right? lol I know there can be an argument made that it works as a coping mechanism, but I think I know enough about myself to understand wether that's all it is for me or not. I still keep doing it and believing it accomplishes something, so for me, it's not. |
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| LarryOldtimer | May 8 2007, 07:01 PM Post #9 |
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I see no need for a supernatural being to have ongoing life. Much of what we humans have seen as supernatural in the past has since been explained by what is natural. Imagine a primitive person, and not even so primitive as that, who sees a caterpillar spin itself a cocoon, and then, sees a butterfly come out of the cocoon. For such a transformation to take place there, must be some supernatural power to cause it. As it is, we have no idea of what "life" is, or consists of. We only know that it is. We have much indeed to yet learn. |
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| Deleted User | May 9 2007, 04:59 AM Post #10 |
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Yea, but you can watch the transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly. We know what's happening. If you believe there's a life that exists after death--where is it? Where did it come from? If it's something that exists within the same frame of time as all of us here, why can't we see it? And if it exists in another dimension or something, what carries you from the physical being you've been in, into this new dimension? Wouldn't you already have to be believing in a spirit, or soul that exists within yourself, in order for something to be left after we die on Earth? |
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| GreatWhiteHorse | May 9 2007, 09:59 AM Post #11 |
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Friend of Caesar
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The problem you are having, Lefty, is the widespread misconception that there is a difference between an atheist and an 'agnostic'. People think that the title of atheist means you believe in nothing in regards to higher powers and afterlives and all of that fun stuff...but the truth of the matter is that the word atheist means 'non-theist' and that is all. It means you do not subscribe to any of the world's relious nonsense and while many atheists do not believe in anything beyond the grave, many do. I admittedly have no idea what awaits us all, and I don;t pretend to. Those who pretend to know are the religious types. But to say you know that there is no god/higher power/afterlife is just as arrogant, since, as Larry mentioned, human history teaches us one thing for sure: As much as we pretend to know, we don''t know squat. |
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The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. -Oscar Wilde | |
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| LarryOldtimer | May 9 2007, 05:26 PM Post #12 |
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The man!!
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How true that is. What humans have in abundance is arrogance. Even those who believe in a god which favors them have unbounded arrogance. Much of what was in the past thought to have been caused by a god or gods has been proved to be nothing of the sort. As we learn more, I have no doubt that much more which is thought to be from or of a god will also prove to be natural. As for thinking about what might be ongoing life, allow me to be the first to remind everyone . . . we have no idea what life itself is. We can't quantify it, can't describe what it is composed of, and many times, can't even tell if it is there or not. We have much to learn. My personal experiences have shown me that much of what I learned in college in physics isn't true . . . at least at all times. What I learned is mostly true, but when it isn't, get ready for a great shock to the system. Conjuring up a god to explain things is the lazy way out. It takes hard work and much thinking to find the real reasons things happen the way they do. |
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| GreatWhiteHorse | May 10 2007, 02:22 AM Post #13 |
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Here, here! Very true! Kind of explains why all primitive cultures throughout history had gods but not all had hygiene, mathematics, masonry, the friggin' wheel. |
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| Deleted User | May 10 2007, 03:01 AM Post #14 |
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I don't "conjure" up a God to explain things. But there must be something that has always been, otherwise, where did it come from, and whatever came before that--where did that come from? I don't believe in a God in the sense that he's even somehow connected to a Mary, Jesus and a Joseph, or even anything in a the Bible or anything connected to religions in general. I just feel that there must be something that has always existed, and whatever that is, is God to me. Everything after that, people can determine on their own. |
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| Deleted User | May 10 2007, 03:10 AM Post #15 |
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I just read your first response GWH, and after reading it, it would seem I agree with those beliefs more than you might realize, but at the same time I don't consider myself an atheist, because I believe in a God in the sense that I described above. Like I mentioned originally, I'm not much for religions. |
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